Imposter Syndrome, Success and Failure | Eva Valovska

Imposter syndrome. Hustle culture. Burnout. We hear these words often, but what do they really mean for high-performing leaders who constantly push themselves to the limit? In this episode, I sit down with Eva Valovska, CEO of Trust Women, to explore the hidden challenges behind success and the complex emotions that accompany it.

We start with imposter syndrome—something many leaders experience, but few openly discuss. Eva and I talk through the different ways men and women feel it, with men often seeing it as a sign of humility, while for women, it can be a much deeper issue tied to societal pressures and biases. We dig into how these feelings of inadequacy can be driven not just by our own internal thoughts, but by the very structures and environments we work in.

How does hustle culture tie into all this? We explore how the push to always achieve more, to work harder, and to be perfect often leads us down a dangerous path. It's a journey many of us have been on, including myself. We often confuse constant output and perfection with success, but as Eva so insightfully points out, this mindset only leads to exhaustion and feelings of unworthiness. The more we chase, the further we feel from true happiness.

Whether you’re a CEO, a leader in transition, or someone feeling the weight of imposter syndrome, this conversation will challenge the way you think about success. Are you chasing someone else’s definition of achievement? Are you listening to the "shoulds" that society places on you, or are you carving out your own path?

Show Links:

• Read more about how imposter syndrome might actually be a feature, not a bug: Imposter Syndrome Is A Feature, Not A Bug
• BBC article: Are You an Insecure Overachiever?
• Harvard Business Review: Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome
• The Confidence Gap: How to Overcome the Confidence Gap in Men and Women
• Book Recommendation: How to Do Less by Kate Northrup

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Transcript

0:02

So today I have a really interesting conversation with Eva Valovska. We talk a lot about imposter syndrome at the start, how it's different for men and for women where it comes from childhood. We talked through to success. What success means, the kind of hustle culture, overachievement, and how success can actually have a dark side to it. We're right through to the end where we talk a lot about identity and how often when we don't hit success or don't have success. We question our very identity. This is quite a wide ranging subject. And one that I enjoyed very much talking about with Eva. So the animal further ado, enjoy the podcast.

Joe: 0:37

Eva, do you want to give yourself an introduction and tell everybody who you are?

Eva: 0:42

Yes, sure. Hello, everybody. My name is Eva Valovska and I'm a CEO of a non profit organization called Trust Women, which is based in Slovakia, and we are focused on psychological barriers of women in terms of reaching gender equality and actually better life when it comes to their career and even personal growth.

Joe: 1:04

Great. Well, welcome to the show. So today this conversation started because I posted an article, which was quite spiky, spicy, about six months ago now, which was talking about imposter syndrome, and I was saying that imposter syndrome could be looked at as a feature and not a bug, i. e., if you're feeling imposter syndrome, it shows you're in the right place, doing the right things, and you're humble enough to understand you're not great at everything. Now admittedly, perhaps I got that from more of the male audience that I work with, but you got back to me quite quickly with some interesting comments. What, immediately struck you when you you read the article that I, published? I'm really curious on what, your thoughts are on that.

Eva: 1:47

your post actually caught me in a very interesting period, because I was actually in the middle of writing essay for my school, focused on imposter syndrome, which was actually the qualitative report of the article of HBR, Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome. And then I saw the post, which said, that imposter syndrome is a feature, which was pretty controversial. and I will be very honest, it moved me, not in a positive way, because I completely didn't understand what did he mean. But then I reached out and we had a very good discussion about it from different point of view, but still, I must say, in a very open way, that with the sentence like imposter syndrome is a feature, I completely disagree. And this will be a very nice discussion.

Joe: 2:41

Tell me then, tell me where, your research has taken you. Tell me what your thoughts are, especially with imposter syndrome and, women, as you mentioned.

Eva: 2:51

not only this topic, but even my work with women, and when I go deeper in the psychological barriers and mental health of women. It took me in the position, very different, when I compare it, when I started, because usually even the topics like gender equality and some personal growth of women or psychological barriers or glass ceiling, et cetera, including imposter syndrome can sound like, okay, we can acknowledge these kinds of barriers and we can start working on it because you usually use. How to influence things that I am able to influence and I am able to change. And in my opinion, it's very good to start with ourselves, right? However, even my work and even imposter syndrome opened the doors, The opposite side of the whole topic and it's like a system structures society. And even my essay, when I started to write about the imposter syndrome, took me in the position that when I say a okay, what can we do as women or people, not only women, to work with imposter syndrome feelings, what is B, what our workplace structure system, society leaders can do to help us. And now that brought me to chicken and egg question, of course, even in the essay.

Joe: 4:25

And so, is it maybe worth us making a definition of what imposter syndrome is then? So, in your research, what's your kind of definition of imposter syndrome? Where does it start for you?

Eva: 4:37

Yeah, I'm happy that even in every article it said that it's actually not a syndrome or some kind of diagnosis when it comes to really psychological point of view. It's just a name of the feelings, which is not a real syndrome. That's very important to say. And the feelings can be described as feelings of inadequacy, even when there is an evidence of success or skills of some people. So when it comes to even my story, like you reach the success and you don't feel like you, you deserve it and you deserve the place where you are actually when it comes to the career growth.

Joe: 5:16

Okay. Cause it's really interesting. Cause like you say, I see it a lot with the folks that I coach, the CEOs that I speak to, especially first time CEOs who don't feel necessarily that they deserve to be in the seat that they're in, that their previous successes don't really count for as much in their eyes. So they're a lot harder on themselves in terms of their own abilities, almost like they're having a moment where this feels too much. I don't know if I can do this. They do feel that. inadequacy sat in that seat and in that role. They don't share that with lots of people, but they do share that with me. And it's definitely a common thing that I see is that this feeling comes up. And so admittedly, that's more in the, I see that I've coached many more men, male leaders than I have female leaders. that actually the, imposter syndrome side of it. is something that seems to be quite normal. Certainly the people I work with and the people that I attract, who are often more along the humble side of being a leader, really. And the imposter syndrome aspect for them is really about them wanting to self improve to get better, to realise that what's got them the job is not the thing that's going to make them successful in that job. That self improvement, which has often led them to the conversation with me is something that they need to explore. And going through the conversations in this continual self improvement is a way of them almost offsetting slightly this feeling of inadequacy that's there. That maybe sometimes goes, maybe it doesn't go, but at least they know they're on the right path to dealing with that. And so I perhaps treat it as something that seems to be quite benign and maybe not harmless. it's not the right word, certainly leaders that I work with, but I'm guessing it's sounding like that's quite different for lots of the women that you've done the research with, that it's not a kind of. A benign feeling or a feeling that allows them to want to get to that point where they're, going on a journey of self improvement of actually maybe actively it holds them back. Am I right in saying that? That it's a different feeling from the experiences I've just mentioned there.

Eva: 7:16

To be honest, I don't know even where to begin because yes, of course, there is a different for men and women and their feelings, even treatment, even experiencing imposter syndrome from what I read and from what I researched and even from what I experienced. I can confirm that. And the main reason is exactly the environment that we live with, live in. And I again, need to say that kind of B, like what are the systems that support or go against, women or men growth and success. So, the huge, difference is, the gender biases or even some other kind of biases and stereotyping of minorities. and that influences, influence imposter syndrome feelings, of course. So, that's the big difference between men and women. And of course, men have another kind of barriers that actually, blocks them. in a way of sharing, and even treating, this kind of imposter feelings because they are thought, to keep it from themselves from childhood, right? And not to talk about and not to show the feelings of doubts, because that would mean vulnerable, vulnerability. Oh my God, that's such a difficult English word. Um, so that's the big difference. But, back to the even main topic, like how to work with imposter syndrome and how you work with imposter syndrome with your clients, because that was exactly the point of our last discussion when we agree with each other. and I remember it very clearly because the, post or some kind of, even, promotion. of the hard times and of some kind of mental health barriers of people are sometimes even promoted in a way like we can leverage from it and it can be the tool or a feature or something like that. And without the context, People, in my opinion, are pressured or are, yeah, are motivated to, to grow despite of that. And, in my opinion, that's a very wrong promotion of such a, series. feelings like imposter syndrome can be. So that was the reason what actually moved me when I saw or when sometimes I see this kind of headlines. Because growing with the feelings or despite of the feelings of inadequacy can be, in my opinion, very dangerous. In long term point of view.

Joe: 10:12

that's really interesting. There's a couple of points in there that I want to pick up on, right? That maybe I've been seeing it, or I see it in the people I work with as being an intrinsic thing. It comes from inside, right? I have this feeling of, Being this imposter just comes from inside. Maybe there's not much evidence out there to back it up. Whereas what you're describing is much more of the opposite, that extrinsic thing where there's the very processes and structures of society, certain individuals, women, whoever they are, there's an extrinsic feeling that comes from outside that you shouldn't, you're not deservedly in the position you're in. That these, number one, they come from two different places.

Eva: 10:50

From my point of view, I would describe it as, at least it doesn't help. So of course it starts somewhere, but it can start as a normal and common self doubt. And it was exactly described in the article of HBR, like you start the position with some normal kind of. feelings of doubts, right? and you feel like, okay, you don't know what you are doing at the new position. and it, when you feel that, okay, you have the right to be there and you feel even the support from outside, it can really help. and that's the big difference in women and men. And their experience, what can happen if you create a supportive workplace environment. Because, of course, it starts And it can be triggered by internal kind of feelings of doubting the skills and etc. But it can be, yeah, like people workplace environment, colleagues, a boss, or whoever can really help with that. But if it's not there, then it goes deeper and deeper, and then it becomes like a serious imposter syndrome feelings.

Joe: 12:15

it actively holds you back, it's like a snowball, isn't it? So that initial feeling of. Discomfort grows and grows and becomes something more if there's not the support on hand for that person to come to terms with that feeling and understand if it's real or not. Right. So a lot of what I work with, certainly with the men I work with is, that actually feeling, are you actually really an imposter? And often that's an easy thing to do because there's much around them telling them that they are in the right kind of place. Whereas again, if you're a woman or, In other sorts of situations, they may not be that same validation coming from outside that you are rightfully in that correct seat, that isn't there, that it isn't something you're almost inventing yourself, that actually there's real evidence out there to suggest that maybe you shouldn't be, right? And that makes it a different thing for you to come to terms with then.

Eva: 13:03

Yeah. Well, in ideal world, we would have this source inside of us, right? If we take a person who had a supportive childhood and who was encouraged from childhood to, to be enough and to grow in a way, like freely, without any kind of expectations or pressure, then you have got this source inside of you. And despite of any other circumstances, you reach the position and you believe that you reached it because of your skills and you believe in yourself. But, honestly, even The research shows that women have, actually, lack of self confidence, much more than men have, just because the way we are raised as kids, and just because the biases and stereotypes that can happen during our career growth, So that's the evidence that this. Sources inside of us can be really like shaken and the doubts can be like increased by these external circumstances. And in case we don't believe in ourselves and we have got the doubts, the only source and the only support we can get. Apart from working with our, ourselves could be the environment and support from outside.

Joe: 14:35

Yeah, that's interesting. And like you say, there's a vulnerability involved in talking about this. And if you're a leader, number one leadership is a more of a lonely place because you don't have many peers you can discuss these, things with. Right. And that's how ironically the time you need it most is you're feeling more imposter syndrome, the more senior you get, you have the less support there because there aren't many peers in your organization. And certainly if you're the CEO, you are the only CEO. And so you don't have that support structure in place to help you, to help offset these feelings, right? And so you are. Therefore going around in your head a lot more about this stuff. You don't have somebody to talk it through with. You don't have a support group or any structures in place to really support you through that. Yeah. And it gets harder and harder.

Eva: 15:19

Yeah, what's interesting is that even last week I had a presentation about this kind of image and this kind of pressure in the business environment, business environments, because what is very interesting is that We still hear a lot of how to work extra mile, how to work more, and if you need to reach something, you never give up, but there is a huge but, like even the research shows that if you are more focused on one thing and you do less, you are more satisfied, you are more healthy, and you reach more, so more Doesn't mean more, which is really interesting. I don't know how it happened with such a huge speed that we became, existing in the environment where there is so much, I call it press, which is pressure And stress in combination. Two, to reach high position in ideal place up to 30 years old, because otherwise we are not good entrepreneurs if it's later. And this kind of stuff, like working till late nights that don't need to have any personal life. Now the well being became such a buzzword, but sometimes I feel it means like you go to massage and spa. And, that's your well being and work life balance, right? Which is not actually the right way. So and that's all around the imposter syndrome, all around showing the real doubts. And honestly, when I imagine the boss who comes and say, I have no idea. what to do now, or, I also had my doubts when I became a leader or boss, that would be such a relief for myself. And that would be such a motivating point for me that even I can do it. So, I don't know, that's something that we try to do even with Trust Women, which is very controversial, controversial, to have the presentation in the bank And, tell people, do less, you will be much. more happy. And then you need to say, listen, it will be also good for the company, the economic results, etc. But, but yeah, this is what, my beliefs are. And, Of course, it's, some of it, it's support with my experiences and some of it, it's support even by the research.

Joe: 18:00

Now, and I see it a lot with the folks that I work with as well, because the sort of, the further dark side of the imposter syndrome is you, because you have that level of insecurity, you tend to then begin to overachieve as you do more work, right? You do more, you're never satisfied with your level of output or quality or, your boss, whatever your boss says, or what your team says, or what your clients say, you're never quite believing that they are, Even if they're telling you're doing a good job, you don't believe it. So, you're always working at 110, 120 percent because you have this voice in the back of your head saying, you're just not good enough. You just work harder and more and more. And as you said, you just take more on, right? And that's the hustle culture. That's the whole. the whole way of being an entrepreneur is you work really hard. You're never satisfied with your results. It's almost back to the first thing that I said is that imposter syndrome is a feature in that regard, right? Because any human who feels it, if you're a boss, anybody in your team feels imposter syndrome, great, right? Rub my hands with glee. These people are going to work twice as hard, deliver twice as much because they have that insecurity. They have that ability to overachieve because they feel really insecure. Yeah. And that's great in the short term, as you said, because you can get results up until about, you're aged about 30, but then, the dark side of that is, is burnout, right? Is you start to burn out, you can't keep working at that rate.

Eva: 19:28

It's burnout. It can be depression. It can be even the, suicidal, ideas. and very kind of serious results of it and actually nobody really want to talk about it. that's, when you started to talk about it and describe this kind of, overachieving moments, I always imagine the document of Arnold Schwarzenegger. I must say, I loved it. It was a very nice piece of, of, document. However, many people took it as a motivation to be useful. in life because that's the headline. And to be honest, like what I saw was the exhausting, like exhausted person who is never satisfied in life with the results. Which leads to loneliness, which even he admitted in the document. I, I know, nothing about his life, of course, but that was the lesson to learn from myself, in the document, like how people can be successful. with the feelings that they are not good enough, they are not beautiful enough, they are not healthy enough when it comes to their body, they are not the best actors, even the celery and even the, movies that they get, is. So, so that's, sometimes, What I take from the lessons when it comes to the internal and external motivation, how you described at the beginning, like this, in the external motivation is very short term and can exactly bring a huge results. And I was example of it when I had my entrepreneurial, short career, which took, which lasted for two years. And then what happened? what usually happens, the failure comes and it. comes, it always comes. So, and that's the question, that's exactly the moment or, yeah, some kind of like breaking point, okay, what was my motivation? because it destroyed me, it paralyzed me for such a long time. And, the failure. Usually, when there isn't the internal motivation is the trigger point, is, usually described as a point like you learned from the experience and you go on. and that's what really amazed me in the books. This kind of sentence is okay, I felt like, how can this be a good experience? and something that I should overcome when it's painful, you feel like you are a loser, that you didn't succeed. And, and basically the reason was that my motivation was not actually the internal one. I just wanted appreciation. I wanted respect from the others. I wanted the result. Not the journey or not that kind of path that led to the result. and this was my very painful way of realizing,

Joe: 22:56

Gary

Eva: 22:56

Vaynerchuk is still talking about, that you do whatever you do, despite of the result, So, even now I'm doing the work and honestly, I have no idea what will, what the result will be or whether I'm gonna be successful And I don't care. I like it.

Joe: 23:21

And what a wonderful story, right? Because that's your lowest low when you were, and I guess looking from the outside, you probably looked like you were really successful, right? At that point, people look to you and be like, Hey,

Eva: 23:33

Don't trust social media.

Joe: 23:36

it's a similar, I have a similar experience in my life where. The point in my life where I was seemingly at my best, where I was on stage in front of thousands of people, I had my own startup, we were raising lots of money. I was absolutely at my lowest point internally, but by all measures of success, additional success, I looked to be extremely happy. I wasn't, I was exactly the opposite. And that's the point you get to, isn't it? In that overachiever's journey, that, imposter syndrome drives you to the point where you've got all this thing and you like you're there and maybe you've got some success, but you don't feel that satisfaction that you expected to get. Actually, often you just feel tense, just feel worse. Cause you mentioned, yeah, and that was the trigger point for me is that I don't feel any better for this. In fact, I just feel even more empty. That was my trigger point for it going, okay, this has to change. Can you share what, was your trigger point? What was the point when you realized that this was happening to you? was there a particular moment where it triggered you?

Eva: 24:37

It was exactly that failure. I had to fail my startup during COVID. And it would be great to say that it was because of COVID, but of course it was not. It was many mistakes that I made at that point. the, trigger point was that when I failed, I didn't know who I am. And that's a plus part. I was a mom at that stage, expecting my second child, and I felt like a loser, like I have no mission in my life. I felt like what I'm gonna do, and who I'm gonna be when I have no career in front of me. And that was a very low moment of connected to my favorite topic and it's self esteem, which is exactly the topic that I opened, thanks to this experience as well. And it took me for maybe almost two years. to realize. Why I wanted to build a billion, worth company, and that, that actually was not my dream. I just wanted to be good enough. And I thought that this. will made me, make me good enough. And I love that paradox in psychology, that as soon as you stop trying, or when I translate it, as soon as you start to be okay with who you are and where you are, then you start to grow. And then you grow. the path somehow happens. So even in my case, I was at the sofa, feeding my child who was one year old. And I got the phone call that I should go with some special. Plane, government plane with some important people to travel to Paris to sign up the gender equality, document with, Macron and president and, the other important people just there. Just at the stage where I failed with the startup and I gave up on my career and I was like, okay, now I'm going to be a mom for a, for another year and something hopefully will happen. And then I got the call. I didn't travel. I got COVID. But this was actually the trigger point where I was like, okay, what's happening? When I somehow start to be satisfied and calm, the things started to happen and it. might sound spiritual, which I don't want to look, don't want to sound like, but, yeah. Even in psychology, it's proven or it suggests that, when you need to be success, satisfied with the things that are happening with even weaknesses and strengths you have, and from that point and from that basement, you can start growing. Like you, that's what I said, I cannot imagine to grow in the career, despite of the feelings of inadequacy or That I became, successful and I'm not worth it.

Joe: 28:16

Wow, what a powerful story, right? So the very point you at, you're at your lowest where that had happened to you, you get the call for the thing that actually that really is what you're calling is, right? Is that's it. That's the point where it comes to you is when have that call to go on that trip and

Eva: 28:34

It was absurd, to be honest. I thought for three days it was a joke from some house, from someone. Seriously, I was like, why? like, why now? And why me? was nice.

Joe: 28:48

Wow. Cause it, it strikes me a lot of this as well also reflects into the ways that we see the world. So a lot of, for a lot of entrepreneurs, the feeling of a of the word I hear is should, right? I should grow this business to be a billion dollar business. I should hire 10, 000 people to work for my business. I should raise money. I should be working 70 hours a week. Is anytime you hear the word should. That's a kind of warning sign to me that's somebody else's view of what success is or somebody else's view of what, you want, right? You should want to be a millionaire, right? Cause millionaires are happy. The reality is as soon as you hear that word should, that that's a real danger sign for me because that's somebody else's goal or somebody else's wish or somebody else's journey that you're going on. And it's not always yours. And I think certainly for me, it sounds perhaps like for you as well, that we are, when you're pursuing somebody else's. So somebody else's goals, of course, you're not happy, right? All the goals that society tells you, you should have. Like both of us are similar kind of generation where we were brought up, we should want to build a million dollar company and be super rich. And the reality is probably both of us have come to terms with the fact that actually that's not, what's going to make us happy.

Eva: 30:03

well, I love playing with the words, and you just mentioned the word should. For me, that word is success. like I always believed that I need to be successful to be good enough. I always believed that the success should be visible, that it should be shown and confirmed by the others, and then I can believe. in my success. So directly the opposite way. and I hated that word after my failure. I hated what the word success means in the world. I, was really angry, to be honest, with that word and with that pressure. But now it's one of my favorite word because I actually read the real definition of it. And what success means is the positive outcome. of any effort, which my moments of the success is several times of the day. When I have the day that I don't scream on my children, it's success. When it happened to me that I put them into bed, it's a success. Also, when I write the essay. of biopsychological studies of menopause, which I have no idea what I'm writing about. It's a success. So not only building a million dollar company means success. And that's what the source of internal self esteem is like to realize that either mother on maternity Student, children, or colleague, or entrepreneurs can be successful.

Joe: 32:00

But what's interesting there is it's got to be your definition of success, hasn't it? That's a very personal thing. Cause I, I work with lots of founders who've, who are post exit, right, who are rich beyond their dreams, have more money than they know. they never expected to have, and they assumed that would mean success for them, that they would be, feel comfortable on the other side of it. I know it sounds like a cliche, but the reality is, they're not. They're just as happy, they're just as unhappy and unfulfilled as they have been before. And we, again, equate success with money. Money makes success, right? Cause it's a very measurable way of doing it. And exactly what you've described, nothing of what you described as success there relates to money in any way. I so share a similar view. I, success for me is being able to go and pick up my daughter from school every day and having a job that, that, a career that allows me to do that. That's success for me. And that's my definition of it. And I love that. And it makes me happy, not being, having enough money to do anything or anything that I want really that's by the by for me success, isn't it?

Eva: 33:01

Yeah, well, honestly, I can absolutely relate to that, of course, money means freedom, really influence, influences happiness, of course, which, of course, that doesn't mean that we don't need it or we don't want it. however, if there is the sacrifice. And such a huge sacrifice, like feeling I'm not good enough all of the time, then it's not worth it. But just that's just my personal view. I was thinking at that time when I failed with the startup, I was thinking like, okay, the world should know the truth. And I called it for myself, like the ugly truth. okay, I would love to Research and make a statistic like how many of entrepreneurs and what's the percentage of entrepreneurs who are really happy after they exit. Because I would love to know that. And, that's not that I don't respect entrepreneurs. To be honest, I respect them so much because I, my personal guess is that At least half of them reached it with this sacrifice, because they felt that they need to, otherwise they are nobody. And, I would love to live in the world where successful people reach it because they loved what they are doing, because they want to do it in the long term, because that's, in my point of view, support economic. More than the short term businesses and exits, with the burnt out people who then need to leave the market and live in Sri Lanka. But that's maybe controversial.

Joe: 34:56

It's, exactly it is that you see that is that the very word exit is that point where you get to the point where you don't want to do it anymore. You want to sell this for the money and get out and do something more interesting or something else instead, right? You have that event and. Anecdotally with, and I probably worked with maybe up to 20 exited founders over the last couple of years, lots of them have that feeling of dissatisfaction because they don't have much else to go to, right? They lose a lot of their identity on the other side of this event. And part of what they were doing beforehand is they had identity, they had purpose, they had vision. They had an idea of what their success was. They just, at some point got that confused with the monetary value of the business that they had. They got the two things conflated. And the reality is, they are very different things. And on the other side of that is any point you realize that is, on the, after the exit, you go, Oh, actually I was much happier beforehand because I had some purpose in life, right? I had something that I was working towards. I had a life's dream here. That's gone now. I've got absolutely everything that I want. I almost have, there's no reason for me to do anything anymore because I All the money that I need. And that then becomes really hard for them to find purpose in the second part of their life at that point. Yeah.

Eva: 36:31

love, to be honest, I love MMA, so there is one, my favorite MMA female fighter here in Slovakia, and I listened to her podcast recently, and she said, I'm not only the fighter. I'm doing everything I could, but before the match, yeah, is it match, or fight, before the fight, I usually motivate myself with a sentence like, you've done everything you could, now go and enjoy it. And no, not okay, you are the winner and you will succeed. And that's all you've got. Because if she said exactly, if she had only the, this career, and if she feels like she's only the fighter in life, that would be such a huge pressure that she would lose. All the time because she couldn't handle That kind of pressure. Like she understands it. I really admire that because she's pretty young and at that age, I really didn't have it. I thought Okay. I need to be successful and perfect in everything I do.

Joe: 37:44

Because we're wrapping up our identity then, aren't you? That's what we're saying here, is your identity is then wrapped up in your whole, what you do, and your success is wrapped up in your identity. So if you're not successful in that traditional sense, then your identity takes a huge knock. Who am I if I'm not successful in this way? And it can come Really hard for you to recover from something like that. So that's a lovely way to look at it. It's just, I've done everything that I can. Now I just need to enjoy it. That's a great outlook on life, especially when somebody is punching you in the face. I think that's a great way to think about it.

Eva: 38:15

I'm like, enjoy it. I cannot imagine, to be honest, but, but yeah, it's very admirable, to be honest. I love that, that interview and that's some kind of content that I'm currently searching for, which is very different. Because I remember myself, digesting all the stories about successful startups and, taking the lessons and inspiration and recipes of how to do it. and now actually I'm searching for the people who have it somehow all together without that kind of pressure and kind of, stuff. Proving, ourselves to, to to the, others.- And, this never give up attitude is also a question for me. I still believe that there is a time to give up. And now the question is when, and this kind of topic about self esteem, but as you were saying, I love even that all the psychological podcasts or even the topics usually end up with raising. us as girls and boys. And actually it leads to, the childhood anyways, like that's such an important.

Joe: 39:35

to childhood and what we're

Eva: 39:37

Well,

Joe: 39:37

what we learned. Yeah. And maybe that's something we could explore at a later date because I think we could just carry on talking. This has been a wonderful conversation. So thank you very much for your time, Eva. I really appreciate it. is there somewhere where, folks can learn more about you? Is there somewhere they can go and find more out about you? the best place to go?

Eva: 39:58

London because I studied there and I have some big plans for the future, hopefully in the UK. So hopefully I will switch one day to both languages or actually to English, but it's a long journey ahead. very much.

Joe: 40:12

thanks again for your time.